PvP Solutions Poll

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Acidhedz, Mar 3, 2016.

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Which Solution Do You Think Is Best For PvP and PvE Cohabitation?

  1. A Bag That Turns off PvP + Anti-PK Buff

    2 vote(s)
    7.4%
  2. A Toggle Switch on the Log-In Screen

    6 vote(s)
    22.2%
  3. An Anti-PvP Self-Buff Anyone Can Learn

    13 vote(s)
    48.1%
  4. An option similar to Epithet that cannot be changed for 2 hours after switching

    6 vote(s)
    22.2%
  1. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    The purpose of this poll and thread is to reach a conclusion as to which possible solution to the PvP problem is the most fair, equal and beneficial to allow all three playstyles to cohabitate.
    Note: How to properly balance PvP and prevent PKing is a different topic.

    PvP players may refer to the list of common objections and their answers below.

    Please vote and respond with a carefully considered reasoning as to why you prefer one solution over another.
    Work out additional pros and cons for each.
    Attempt to reach a community consensus and/or eliminate any that are not feasible.

    Bag + Buff:
    Pros: A bag that flags PvP off means only one thing has to be added to the game.
    Unless you want to run around with one empty bag all the time, it's not easy to exploit it to PK and run.
    Keeping the buff allows those who want to switch back and forth easily to do so with minimal cost.
    Cons: None that I can tell.

    Toggle Switch:
    Pros: Just choose how you want to play when you log in and not have to think about after that.
    Cons: More work on the Dev end, and if you want to switch back and forth you have to log out.

    Anti-PvP Self Buff:
    Pros: Easy to keep PvP off or on. Would require a cooldown after attacking anyone.
    Cons: Even more work on the Devs side. Having to keep re-buffing.

    Option like an Epithet:
    Pros: Same as a toggle switch, set it and forget it.
    Hard to exploit.
    They can make $ selling ways to reduce or remove the cool down, just like epithets.
    Cons: Probably the most work of any option.
    Waiting, for those who like to switch between the two styles.


    To avoid further merry go rounds with PvP players I have gathered your greatest hits and addressed them.

    1. It's not how the game was made.
    A: Neither was the stat system, but that got changed when it proved to be a problem.
    Most of you have no problem demanding the XP rates and Drop rates be changed, those were how the game was made too you know. Acting as if things you don't like are fine to change, but things you like should be treated differently is hypocritical.
    Just because something was made a certain way originally, does not make it inherently superior.

    2. PvP is not a problem.
    A: Maybe not to you, but it is to many others and you are not more important than they are.

    3. I like Open-PvP and Pking. Why is it fair for you to turn it off?
    A: We don't, and you are not more important than us. Because PKing and Open-PvP is already an unequal situation in your favor. You don't get to play victim and cry about it being taken away.

    4. If people can turn off PvP, there will be no one to PK or fight.
    A: Too bad. Guess open-PvP isn't as fun to people as you think it is. If people turn something off as soon as the option is given, they clearly didn't want to be doing it in the first place. Your desire to force people into PvP is not more important than their desire that you not be able to.

    5. It's an important part of the game.
    A: No it isn't. Your enjoyment of it does not make it important in any objective sense. You do not NEED to play PvP to do anything in this game, except get bad karma. It is not required to progress, that makes it side content. No different than Chat, lions roar, party requests, band requests, and other things that can already be turned off in the options. Some of which are major reasons some people play.

    6. You are depriving us of how we like to play.
    A: No we aren't. You can still play PvP against each other with any of these options in place. You just can't force anyone into it that doesn't want you to. Past that, see #s 2-4.

    7. Play a different game.
    A: No. Acclaim made this game PvE years ago and brought in that audience. You can't pretend that never happened. Since this is where you usually start repeating yourselves, just go back to #1 and start over.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
    Perfection likes this.
  2. ihgyug

    ihgyug Active Member

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    There isn't the option " I don't want any **** protection for pve, **** you acidzeh".
    Add it and let's be fair.
     
    Oskaras and machatzi like this.
  3. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    See #2, #3 and #6 responses please. Thank you and have a nice day. Don't let the door hit ya where mother nature split ya on the way out.
     
  4. Szafka

    Szafka Active Member

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    What about leave PVP as it was like real 9Dragons?
     
  5. ihgyug

    ihgyug Active Member

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    Ah right, you know, I usually don't read what you write on forum.
    Anyway, this poll is unfair.
     
  6. Anikitos

    Anikitos New Member

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    Let me tell you my opinion. I am more PVE nowadays but in past when I had a lot more free time I loved to mix time between PVP and PVE so I think I am someone who understands both groups here.

    Well most serious games that got some sort of PVP/PVE toggle got it in game toggle with a long cooldown(never seen less than 4h I think) to prevent exploiting. Some even got it as Peace/PK mode icon on your avatar top left. While i am of the opinion that there should be some sort of protection I think the poll should had included more options.

    the bag you mention by the way can be exploited in pvp by someone going to pk spree and then wearing that bag so he doesnt get killed back - there should be a big cooldown to whatever solution

    in my opinion if someone toggles pvp he/she should stay on it like 24h as the min in such a game as 9dragons

    even 2h someone can login and pk, afk somewhere 2h and after go grinding as if nothing happened and laugh at the reinforcements that came which would ruin competetive band/league warfare. Yes we like PVE but we should think both groups(PVP and PVE althought some like to mix both) there in a way both have some gameplay

    Moreover there should be some incentive for people to toggle pvp else few will toggle it - like having a logical boost on skill and character xp
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  7. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    It's only unfair if you're a bigot that's intolerant of the fact that other people enjoy different things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  8. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    See #1
     
  9. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    2 hrs, 4, hrs, it doesn't really matter how long it is.

    More options such as...?

    Not without leaving it empty all the time. You need a free space to add a bag, and you can't remove a bag with anything in it. So the only way to do that quickly, is to give up a whole bags worth of space.

    They can if it's 4 hours, 8 hours or any other period of time. I never said any of these were perfect solutions. The only perfect solution is to make three totally different servers/channels/sets of maps for each of the major 3 styles of play. PvE, bit of both, and PvP. That isn't going to happen, so a compromise solution needs to be found.

    See #4.
    If people need an incentive to play PvP, then clearly it isn't worth having. If it were actually fun you wouldn't need any further incentive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  10. Anikitos

    Anikitos New Member

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    If someone makes a poll should include options for both opposite sides, thats the spirit of being fair - else not everyone will take the poll seriously

    To tell you first I am PVE like you nowadays, but I played many games that mix it like 9d.

    First you need to understand your game needs both groups, not just us, not just them.

    You also forget a third group that likes to PVP occasionally maybe 1-5 days a month for a break from the grind

    Second you need to understand that a game should have a Risk for Reward system - obviously PVP players take higher risk than me and you when grinding with pvp off, right? This means yes they need some incentive cause a pvp player will get surely killed several times and will lvl slower. Everyone who knows how online games balance knows this. The spirit of the topic from start isnt to make PVP players gameplay worse, its to make the game fun for ALL. We shouldnt see facts through only our prism. What I suggest can help both co-exist
     
  11. Anikitos

    Anikitos New Member

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    Also if someone would want to exploit the system wouldnt mind giving up the bag, more runs to the bank yes but he could get away with killing people and turning pvp off when they go against him - the bag isnt a good option without cooldown
     
  12. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    Their point of view is bigoted. There is no point entertaining it.
    IE, they don't care that when they PK someone, or force someone into PvP, that doesn't want them to, that it's interfering with their ability to have a good time playing the game. All they care about is themselves and what they want.

    I didn't forget anyone.
    All of these options allow PvP to be turned off on a personal basis. So no one is being excluded. PvP players can ignore the options and play PvP. PvE players can turn PvP off and play how they want. People who like both can turn it off and on as the option allows for.
    It is a compromise.

    This is a game. They are not risking anything except having a bad time playing.
    See #4. If people need incentives to play PvP, then they must not find it as fun as they claim.
    If they really do enjoy it for it's own sake, leveling a bit slower shouldn't matter. They are getting something in return for it, the fun they get from PvP. Giving them anything else is special treatment.

    If someone is determined to PK people and escape, they will find a way to do it. There is never going to be a way to prevent it completely.

    I have no issue with adding a cooldown to adding or removing the bag, but that does mean more coding.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  13. Anikitos

    Anikitos New Member

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    Risk for Reward is important...lets take it from PVE standpoint too:

    If redfox added a pve dungeon in the game and that dungeon was the longest and hardest in the game and you needed many hours to get through while party members dieing several times, but you got bad exp at the right lvl, bad skill exp and no loot would you do it? one time maybe yes out of curiocity, many times no cause your risk(and yes risk in games is losing time over nothing since all demand time) isnt rewarded

    same way if the pvp players get the more risk but without rewards would they have reason to do it or they would leave 9dragons for something more balanced? So why we should discriminate. Think logically, you are looking things through goggles right now. Instead of seeing either side as enemies in your mind see them all as players wanting to have fun in different playstyles. The goal shouldnt be to oust a group out of the server but to let different styles enjoy the game without hindrances

    Or to say it more direct think solutions and suggestions in a way a server will flourish and survive for years, not what personally would suit you or me or a pvper but what would be viable and fun for everyone

    Also a long cooldown doesnt let a person pk and escape - with a 48h cooldown for example, they would have to wait 2 days to turn pvp off - but instant bag switch - pk - equip bag - go near next victim remove bag- pk the person - equip bag again and even worse, losing the battle and on 20% hp? equip the bag and get away from the lost battle. Now you undestand how exploitable it can be without cooldown? it simply will make griefing newbies easier and normal pvp matches unfair
     
  14. Anikitos

    Anikitos New Member

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    Also there should had been a max lvl difference on which pvp can be possible
     
  15. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    That's fine, but it's really a totally different topic. Making PvP more balanced.


    1. That isn't risk. It's meeting expectation of compensation. Or investment for reward.
    If you spend time on something you expect there to be compensation.
    Your hypothetical dungeon does not meet that expectation.
    If the dungeon is very fun, even if the practical rewards are small, the enjoyment of doing the dungeon will be enough to keep doing it.
    IE, there is no reward for playing Mario, yet I have spent hours doing so. Both in my youth, and as an adult. Why? Because it's fun. That's the only reward I need.

    2. PvP players would be able to use the dungeon the same as anyone else. They just can't PvP inside. Which I'm not sure you can do anyway in the instanced dungeons.

    3. That's false equivalence. The PvP player is ostensibly getting compensated for playing PvP. Their enjoyment of doing so. They say they like the thrill and sense of danger. So playing PvP should be its own reward.

    4. If you had actually bothered to read what I've said, you would know I am being completely logical. Perhaps coldly so, but none the less soundly.

    5. I don't see them as enemies so much as selfish brats that think the world revolves around them. All the options will allow them to play how they want. If they really do enjoy PvP, they shouldn't need incentives to do it.

    6. A 48hr cooldown fails to take into account those who like to switch. Someone would have to plan two days in advance just to go to the BP or to have a duel.

    7. And in exchange for being able to do that, they would have to lose an entire bags worth of space. Considering how limited bag space is in this game, that's hardly insignificant. It could also be eliminated by adding in a level based restriction on who can be targeted. But as I said above, balancing PvP and preventing PKing for those who choose to play PvP once a solution for equality in playstyles is found, is a different discussion entirely.

    Someone suggested giving XP for PvP "kills". That is a perfectly good solution that actually gives an incentive to not PK, since one would assume the XP would follow the same pattern as PvE XP. I wouldn't even mind them getting higher XP for it than mobs since other players will be harder to take down.

    But improving PvP isn't what this thread was supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about finding the best solution for allowing people to turn off PvP when they don't want to play that way, be it for an hour or the entire time they play the game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2016
  16. Zaraton

    Zaraton Member

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    None of options in the poll are technically viable solutions.
    The best solutions right now are as follows:
    • The Hermit's Buff to prevent PvP but there is it being 100k gold (not an issue). The issue is the hassle of someone having to leave the area they are at just to reapply the buff.
    • A button ingame or buff you can learn to prevent PvP would be the best option. However, This should come with a few drawbacks as well (numbered list attached to this bubble)
    1. 4 hour active mob grinding that starts from activating PvP to switch back to PvE. If player stops killing mobs the timer pauses.
    2. Every time said player kills another player the timer increases by 15/30 minutes
    3. +5~10% EXP, +5~10% damage to mobs (excludes bosses and player vs player), and +5% Gold for being flagged in PvP mode (extra risk means extra reward)
    4. If said person kills a player 15+ levels lower the timer increases by 1 hour and you take a 50% stat penalty
    To me these are the best options which slightly helps promote PvP but doesn't force everyone to be involved in it.
     
  17. Anikitos

    Anikitos New Member

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    1. And what you risk on games? your life? no you risk your time - when you die you lose mainly time, higher risks(aka character death ratio and general difficulty) should grant higher rewards. For the record the very same system is usually used to determine mobs exp/loot, higher lvl and more dangerous mobs offer more - risk vs reward

    2. I didnt say they cant use dungeons but even with a small bonus they will lvl slower as they will die often on open world while trying to grind or do their quests(especially those who stay almost permanently toggled on PVP)

    3. And our enjoyment is PVE and socializing, then we shouldnt ask for more exp or skill events etc cause the PVE self compensates anyways? That isnt the right thinking in my opinion.

    4. Logical would be to think all sides of a debate, thinking one and only is directing things only to where it suits you. Good for you? maybe temporary till population drops as pvpers leave and your market plummets , Good fo all? no, Good for the server? no since they would lose players, Good for the company? no as they lose customers

    5. Its more that many players are coming from old school players - most old games including 9dragons tried to mix a rich pve with a lot of pvp opportunities. Its not their fault I believe, even I got killed several times too, its just there needs to be some rules/protection. Also I think there should be given a better arena style fight system so they get more pvp there than in open world

    6. Duels are a different thing if you accept a duel, means you want it, its not forced pvp so there shouldnt be a wait on that, since even pve games permit duel requests. In general controlled PVP is a "different animal"

    7. Trust me on most games pvpers deposit all items before going for pvp anyways so if they could exploit the bag toggle here, why not sacrifice a bag and keep an alt to send items back and forth? I bet we will be killed only at a rate of 20% or so less for those that will be lazy to do it

    Protection has to be done from PVP, just it must be done right is my point and will leave it there, that is all I had to say on the matter
     
  18. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    Why aren't they viable?

    It is an issue because people shouldn't have to pay just to play without PvP, nor constantly keep going for the buff. PvP players don't have to do that, why should PvE players?

    Both of those options are in the poll...

    1. Why should killing mobs be part of the cooldown?
    2. What about people attacking them? That would mean people who like doing both could get stuck perpetually in PvP mode from having to defend themselves.
    3. I have already addressed this. They say they enjoy PvP. That should be reward enough. If they need some sort of extra reward, then they must not like it as much as they claim to. This thread is not about making PvP better, it is about finding the best solution to allow everyone to play how they most enjoy. Excepting PKers who don't matter, since they don't care about anyone else but themselves.
    You're saying that not only should PvE players have to pay for the buff and have to keep running back for it, but that PvP players should be given special treatment on top of it. For doing something they claim to enjoy in the first place.
    4. Why the arbitrary number of 15? It also means someone can effectively grief higher level players by attacking and forcing them to fight. Is 15 levels enough to ensure they wont do any damage?

    You want to talk about not technically possible? You're talking about all sorts of additional coding in a large number of areas.
     
  19. eXtremeINC

    eXtremeINC New Member

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    Another option for those who don't want pvp or pk it's something like "refuse duels" what you can find it on game options. But something simple like this can involve a lot of coding wich can take time.
    It would be nice to activate that option "refuse duels " and to be unable to duel, pvp and pk.
    But now we only can wait to see what's develop team fix.
     
  20. Acidhedz

    Acidhedz Active Member

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    1. They are already getting the reward of playing PvP, which they claim to enjoy.

    2. They made their choice. They can live with it. Or they can turn PvP off and grind normally.

    3. We wont be getting more of anything. If they get less, it's the price of how they like to play the game.

    4. Logic means you are working from clear, sound reasoning. You are talking about a logical fallacy called The Balance Fallacy. Can you provide any reasoning that backs up your assertions? You talk about good logic, but make a lot of claims without providing any support for them.

    5. This has nothing to do with anything I've said.

    6. I am well aware of that, but I do not know if duels can happen if you have PvP off in this game. Even assuming that it is a separate system, BP isn't.

    7. It would still be an inconvenience, and if combined with solutions to balance PvP, it would be a fairly quick and easy solution to the problem that this thread was created to address.
     

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